A lot of guess work

JDC442 Tuesday, 8/14/2012

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There are a lot of different tracks in the mix this season and without knowing what 'actual' cars are racing on each person's track, it's making for a lot of guess work. If the hosts can post some pics of the cars they're running, it would be super nice


Discussion

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redlinederby 8/15/12
Site manager

Just FYI, I'm starting to plan out what it would take to let hosts denote variants within the game itself, but it will be a somewhat slow build. I have concerns about photos and splitting data but nothing technically troubling.

That being said, please use continue to post photos here in the League forum. Thanks!

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seattlegreyy 8/16/12

Brian,

I want you to know that this is feedback...and not bitchiness. You've put together an amazing game that continues to be well worth the time I put into it.

But I have to admit, I liked the game better before host tracks...when it was just your specific car collection pitted against each other--where every specific car (not just "car type") faced off against other specific cars, and each specific car had a track record against the various specific cars they themselves actually faced. (Even back then, I was a little concerned that the car photos were not the images of the actual cars being raced...but as long as the records were tied to a specific car, that was the important thing.)

Now...the Car Ratings don't mean anything--because a car that might be a monster against Brian's cars on the RDR home track might not be nearly so strong as an another version of the same car against other versions of similar cars on different tracks--and the decision has been made just to mush all those results into the same rating for the same "car type".

And the suggestion to keep specific car ratings has been rejected. So, it's all just going to be guess work...which, to me, isn't as much fun as digging into a car's history and seeing that a sleeper has a specific win against a car that had done well against the car it is facing...so, an upset is possible. Now...none of that matters...so there can be no real drama, no surprises, no expectations subverted--it's all just guessing.

The idea that Dieselboy is generally a fast car is nowhere near as compelling as the idea that Brian's specific Dieselboy is a monster and the tension inherent in picking a car to beat that monster.

I get it though. People want to race their cars and have it matter--and being a host for an RDR event gives them that. I totally understand why there's a desire for host tracks and integrating it into the RDR fantasy league...from the participation perspective. BUT, from a player's perspective...for someone who only participates through picking brackets and watching the standings (or rooting on one's team in the ), I worry that it's broken the game.

All I know that it used to take me a good hour to make my picks for a weekend's worth of tournaments...and now, I whip through 'em in ten minutes, max. And after I hit "submit bracket", I shrug and say to myself "Well, who knows?"

I'm not going to quit playing...there's enough silly fun in treating Hot Wheels races that you won't be present for as important enough to care who wins to keep me picking brackets for as long as you make it free for us to do so, my friend (and bless you for all that you've done to make that silly fun possible.)

I'm just saying...it used to be more fun.

Of course, everyone else's mileage may vary.
pg

Do you look at the car records to see if they have raced on that track before? It is something I always take into consideration. Of course a first time track isn't going to have a history but if they stay on the tour, the data is going to start building up. You even have that same issue if Brian was the only one running races as he has two different tracks now.

When there are no records available for a car/track, I treat it like a rookie car and use the experience that I have with that car to know if it generally is a fast car and also consider the track specs. Thanks Nissan 370z FTE!

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redlinederby 8/16/12
Site manager

Feedback accepted and appreciated No worries. Expanding the game to host tracks is something I'm still figuring out myself and getting feedback is very important for how I approach future seasons and game upgrades. I'm reaching a crossroads with the game (thanks to you guys making it a success) where there are now enough veteran players that I have to try and find a balance in keeping things fun and challenging for experienced players but simple and fun enough for new players. I don't want the game to get boring but it can't be so deep that it's hard to jump in.

Adding guest tracks served two purposes from where I sit. First off, I figured it would add some challenge as I felt that running the same cars on my track week after week was getting boring and easy, even as new rookies cars were added. Secondly, having remote hosts offered a new way to get engaged with the RLD product and also a way to unload some of the burden of racing - don't get me wrong, I love doing the races but doing them week after week has become more of a scheduling dilemma for me. But your feedback also tells me I need bring some races back to Ohio during a season rather that outsourcing every week. That's an easy solution.

As far as a hard solution...I've been thinking a lot about how to handle the same car on different tracks. Having stats per car isn't entirely out of the picture, there's just a lot of room for error when you open data management up to a group of people...that's not an excuse to not do it, it just means finding an answer that does what we want is difficult. However, even if we branch out stats to car variants, that doesn't solve the "no data" problem, which means until cars get raced the game will still be a lot of guessing. But like Iowa said, those just have to be considered rookie cars, only now per track.

And this is a good a thread as any to ask the one question that is key to figuring out how to have per-car stats....
What is considered a variant? Which type of variants matter?

In the game as it exists right now, all cars are considered the same unless they are built differently. Things like colors and wheels aren't taken into consideration (outside of FTE wheels). For example, if there is a Mustang that is plastic/metal and the same Mustang that is metal/metal, those are considered two different cars. But if there are two Mustangs that are built the same with non-FTE wheels but are different colors, those are considered the same car...the assumption being color doesn't impact performance.

So if we start tracking stats per car, how should that be decided?

If I'm running a blue, should that be considered a variant and have separate stats?

My thought right now is to have a Global rating for a car which represents the car's overall rating regardless of variant, a sort of super rating. Then each variant would have it's own rating that could be viewed individually. Car win/loss records are already being saved per track so that data won't change, you'll just be able to look up variants per track at that point.

So an example for the Mustang might be...
Mustang Overall Rating is 1248
Blue Mustang Rating is 1198
Red Mustang Rating is 1301

But then also, the FTE would still be considered its own class (car) within the game and NOT a variant.
So then how do we denote a variant between FTE models?

And when it comes down to variants, I would think a host track would have to pick a single variants to use as their "official" version for their track. So if they had both blue, green and red variants of the Mustang, they would have to pick one (the fastest) as their track's official Mustang that gets run every time they host...otherwise you end up with the same problem we have now, only it's multiplied by the number of host tracks.

.......those are questions that are swirling around in my head right now that make solving the "guess work" issue a lot more difficult that it sounds. Believe me, I want to make this game as fun as it can be and I know the stats and numbers are all part of the fun. And being honest, this game was built those years ago without any expectation that it would be around this long, so making additions to the code and stuff is touchy and some things just won't be possible at all unless I rebuild from the ground up (which I've also been pondering a lot lately). I think we can find a happen middleground that will help eliminate some of the guessing but in doing so will undoubtedly increase the game complexity...which isn't a bad thing, just a different thing...but that comes along with the evolution of the game.

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JDC442 8/17/12

I have to agree with seattlegreyy in that I don't feel anywhere as confident in my picks as I did before the introduction of host racing, yet at the same time I love hosting races myself as I'm sure most hosts do, and would hate to take that aspect of the Fantasy League out of the game.
So with that being said, I could see how obtaining and compiling data from every host to provide stats for each individual car that races outside of Brian's collection could get somewhat dicey. I also agree that keeping everything simple would also be great. So as far as a solution for the big picture, I'll leave that to the big guy in Ohio.
But for now, all I'm asking is that I could see a picture of the cars that are racing on the host's track before I make my picks. I could care less about the paint color, it's wheel type and base type(metal or plastic) that I feel is important to know before picking a car.

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redlinederby 8/18/12
Site manager

Well that alone tells me that wheels and chassis make a difference...and one of those is easy to track.

So what I'm thinking might not mean having ratings per each variant but just the ability for hosts to log their variant. There won't be tracking per wheels type, I think that will just be a nightmare to keep up with. I think that might be a happy balance to give you the insight of cars per track without all the tedious management. Hmmmmm...

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Nightstalker 8/19/12

Given a little time to catch up with newer additions to the stable I'll be able to give ya the scoop on the cars including weight and the best time turned in on the "Jersey Shore Dragway". Color and chassis type stuff is easy.
Diecast Cars, Hot Wheels, Matchbox
Photo all cars!!! I'd better get busy.

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redlinederby 8/26/12
Site manager

I got a lot done on the variant add-on for the League and while I think it will work well, it hit me that doing so will kind of add a barrier of entry to be host...but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I mean, basically we're asking hosts to photograph their cars if the variant they have doesn't already exist in the database. Shooting cars isn't hard to do but adds a lot of extra work.

I think that part of the solution to this "problem" is reducing the number of circuit tournaments during a season. I admit I got a little excited as that prospect of racing in a new place every week and jumped at the chance but I should have considered the impact on the game more...so expect a reduced circuit next season.

With any luck I'll have the variant tools ready to go before next season so everyone can get a head start on photographing cars and adding variants. However, if you are a host right now and want to be one in the future, start photographing your cars now and have them saved and ready for when the League tools are launched.

Here's some tips on shooting: http://www.redlinederby.com/blog/2012/0 ... cast-cars/

Adding a variant is going to be incredibly easy for hosts. Just upload your photo and the web site does all the rest. The variant you select will be associated with your class and the photo will change automatically on the brackets so everyone knows which car is running. As far as record data, that already exists per track but I'm hoping to make the reporting tables better and easier to read.

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JDC442 8/26/12

There are a least three hosts that have been posting pre-race photos of their variants already in the threads. I like the idea of having a database of hosts car's variants that you can post automatically.

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redlinederby 8/29/12
Site manager

So here's what I'm thinking right now as far as implementing this stuff...

I don't think I'll get the variants integrated into the game before next season so we'll have to keep doing photo posts here in the forum through the end of the year.

But what I'm planning is to have the variant upload tool be separate from the game so anyone can upload photos of their variants. This will let us (hopefully) get a head start on some variant tracking so when I finally add it to the game there will be a bunch of variants ready to go.

I expect the variant database to be a slow, slow process as people take photos and upload them. I have a ton of variants in my collection that I plan on adding (but most of that only covers muscle cars and Ferrari).

So by early next year we'll hopefully have a decent database of variants that can be used in the game and then maybe also tapped for some RLD add-ons like personal brackets and maybe even a collector app of some sort...dunno, we'll see what happens.

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redlinederby 8/29/12
Site manager

So I guess that means if you're a current League host and care to get a head start on photographing your cars, go for it! Just shoot them in the RLD style and save them on your computer, then once I build the thing you can upload and be done.

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WorpeX 8/29/12

So I guess that means if you're a current League host and care to get a head start on photographing your cars, go for it! Just shoot them in the RLD style and save them on your computer, then once I build the thing you can upload and be done.

I'm already mostly done.


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