Legal Axles

I would say yes, and with pretty much anything goes now as far as lube, I don't see why #17 sewing pins would.be disallowed for axel tubing.

Is this supposed to be a dig at me disqualifying a racer in my last event? Because it sure seems like it?

Retail means stock design.

You don't go pick up a Hot Wheels off the shelf with tubing as part of the axel? That's considered modified axels, not retail axels. 

Nobody else in the tournament did that because everyone pretty much knows that when the host says "Retail Axels and Wheels" it means whatever and however the donor/stock axels and wheels are removed from the car is how they should go back on (with the exception of polishing the stock axels). 

I'll defend my stance on why I DQ'd them, it's clearely outlined in the Rules and Restrictions, any attempt to bend the rules is the same as violating the rules. 

I was under the impression that brass tubes and half axles from hotwheels were still abiding by the retail axle only rule. It's not a rule I like generally, with the amount of modifying being done to cars why should making your own axles be frowned upon? 

Is there a reason why a lot of guys use that ruling, have custom axles proved to be advantageous? 

Obviously it is going to be whatever the host discloses as the entry rules, but if clarification needs to be addressed by the racer to enter the event, then the question must be asked of that rule with that host and his/her race.

I know I didn't know what FTE was, and finally figured it out.  I still don't know what NPA is, but figured I probably don't have any and am not going to replace them.  I will stick with polishing existing axles for the time being.

I recently had to ask a similar question as I did buy some tubes for my tool table/bench; but have not used them.  Should a day come, I will have them.  Before I do use them I will ask the host if it is allowed.

Could it be to conserve space in writing the entry requirements, that it is assumed by those who have been doing this a long time what these rules and leterings mean, yet leaves the hole in what may or may not be legal for that particular entry?  Should a new generic line be helpful for hosts to use?

For me, as long as I just polish existing axles, I am fine.  But if a day should come where I would like to try a sleeve or other modification, I am going to look for an unlimited or modified race that allows such a thing.  If it doesn't state, I will just ask.

The only way a tubed axel can be advantageous to speed, is by creating what's called a "hydrodynamic bearing", which takes some time and practice on a wheel that's small like a diecast wheel, as it's much easier to work the hub of a PWD wheel. The main reason for axel tubing in Diecast is to get the axel width one would need if they don't have a retail axel wide enough for said Build, however, I do feel the rules should be followed and would add "no axel tubing" as well to the list of rules.

A good rule is one that is easy to understand and can be policed.

When I first got into building, I brought up this rule for clarification, as I like to abide by the rules. Well, I got a few different answers. Sighs, so goes on a hosts interpretation.

Personally I do not think it is a good rule, ("Retail axles and wheels only. FTE/NPA axles allowed") as it is too open to interpretation and also difficult to police. And is there anything to be gained by using some of the "Other methods in a mod situation?" Too costly? Difficult to get? etc

What is a retail axle?  A stock axle from HW? Mbx? JL? Realtoy? Majorette? Etc? I have a deadly set of wheels and axles from a Mattel Thomas the Tank Engine casting, Well they are retail, are they legal?? I can also buy plastic wheel/axles off ebay, ie comold. I guess as it did not come off a diecast its not retail? Or is it? No advatage, except expensive! But scratch my head as to why most consider this illegal? I have some weird and wonderful wheels off diecast cars that are retail, so I guess one would have to specify what they came off, if the host did not recognise them?

Then one could query, or argue, if you cut a retail axle, then really its no longer a retail axle? Sometimes necessary to do, for a number of reasons. Then if you dont use axle tubes what do you use? Yes its easy to see the full length axles tubes, as they stick out...How about the tubes that are just used to lengthen the axles that sit in the middle of the chassis hidden away? How do you police that. Is that a wicked advantage? Or just practical reality of trying to make something work?

It then is up to an event organiser to clearly announce his entry rules, and be able to police them.

Sewing, bank pins etc. Gee easy to get, retail shopping! Ha, I really do not see why this is an issue. But... People like to try things, is there an advantage? Most pins are slightly different thickness, and could provide different hub tp axles cleanaces, which may or may not have an effect on the lube you use. But if one were to use sewing pins, without axle tubes you can see, good luck in identifying them! (There are also other ways to affix such pins. Next is axles made from ie piano wire or similar. Easy to obtain, and when fitted, can they be identified and policed? Is it an advantage?

All of the above examples, in my opinion, follow the basic principle of how a "stock diecast wheel and axle" works." ie Plastic wheel, running on a wire axle, (plated or unplated)

I consider we are building mods, and as we are human, like to try and improve on things. Why are we making things difficult?

But I like to follow clear rules. As I can see from only a few comments above, many have a differing idea of this rule. (I would like to add my comments here have no relation to any particular event/host.)

As has been mentioned before, ie with lubes etc, there are quite a few rules that need discussing and updating with clarity and ease of policing in mind. Or we just continue on this path and the circle goes round again.

Food for thought and discussion.

I always advise, read the rules, and if in doubt for a particular event, ask the host in open chat.

Good luck out there!

Cheers

I kinda said this in the other post but I've also seen enough this enough times that it's always a live-and-learn situation for hosts. I went through it...we all go through it. But It ultimately is up to the host what they want to allow and consider. And when something like this pops up, hosts make a note of it for future races and next time will be very specific in what they post. In short, it's normal and fine.

It may be a "poorly written" rule but those pre-filled content is there as a prompt so hosts can consider rules they might not otherwise think of...from car limits to prizes to dq. The bullet points are intended to be adjusted, removed, and new ones added as the host sees fit. 

The genesis behind my question has nothing to do with any recent happenings in our community. Just bad timing I guess.  I hate that I even have to defend myself for asking a question.

Here is the exact reason.

I recently did my first tube axle job using sewing pins. As I was just finishing the build I accidently dropped it and bent the pin axles. They bent way too easily. It was not a hard fall and regular axles would have been fine.  This refreshed a question I've always wondered since I started modding.  If retail axles are required,  why couldn't you cut them in half and still use them?   There has been a ton of discussion lately about lube and other rules and it seems that the majority opinion is... things are ok unless the rules specifically say otherwise.  

=Z=

link to racing terms and glossary for those that have not seen it... www.redlinederby.com/topic/diecast-racing-glossary-and-terms/3308

*Retail axles, Retail wheels
Any axle that comes from a purchased car, regardless of brand. A non-retail axle is one you make from things such as a hat pin, paperclip, piano wire, or other item that did not come from a purchased car. Same concept applies to wheels.*

These sets sold by aliexpress and others are complete axle kits including end retainers and are useable for races since the are sold and marketed as axles not tubes and pins.

I did a video on them when I first started in this hobby. I have yet to use them in a race for various reasons. But it is my intention to use them in the near future in combination with a suspension.

www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805288760681.html

so, I will add another.
some cars I use a split lengthwise tube,
and insert an un cut wheel/axle assy.

it that a tubed axle?  the tube is only sure to take up the slack side to side,
or if the lower casting surface sucks
and the axle spins inside the tube, too

this rule needs re-defined with specific terms being used.
as mark said, what it "retail"
I have 2 nerf cars that weigh 15 g and smoke,
tall skiny and super round

slot car wheels and tires are retail, too
could go on and on, but...we need to re-define "axle packages"
or just simply say almost anything is fair game, like I've done for goat hill

less rules to police = more track time = interesting stuff to watch

dr

I do think the copper tubing/axel tube should fit within the chassis and not protrude outside of the chassis. Plus, unless you can really get the entry point of the axel tube smooth, it will/should be detrimental to speed, as the back of the wheel hub will rub on the copper tubing 360 degrees, whereas the chassis has the top open and would be 75% or less of a contact point for the back part of the wheel hub. Great topic by the way.

Notorious rule-bender here. I consider all options available to me when reading the rules for any race. If the rules don't specifically say that I can't do something, I'll try it if I think it will give me a little advantage, or even if it doesn't give me an advantage if I think it will be challenging and fun to implement. All that said, what is a retail axle? Does it include aftermarket axles? Those are retail if they're for sale anywhere online. I can say that there are a couple of drag racers out there that use tubes sometimes and they absolutely dominate. However, to do it well is one of the most difficult tasks in modifying a car. Only a couple can pull it off properly, and it's not practical for anything other than drag racing. In my opinion, it's up to the host to more clarify what is legal and what isn't. If someone can garner an advantage while staying within a prescribed rules that are stated, I say more power to them. Just because someone isn't creative or skilled enough shouldn't be a reason for them to negate the creativity of an inspired, hard working builder. I'm getting my ass kicked lately, and have no problems with it. I just need to do better.